How strict should we be about references?

When someone makes a claim, should we require them to support that claim with a source? If so, to what extent should we go? Must all claims be referenced or just some?

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Why was the discussion tag removed and the bug tag added? – Fred Nurk Jun 20 '11 at 0:14
It started as a discussion, and I wrote an answer, which was upvoted. But then, some moderator changed it to community-wiki and added the faq-flag, and deleted my answer, because it was a different opinion he didn't like to see in the FAQ. So I asked what's the point of a discussion, if you ban opposite opinions, and said, that we then have to remove the discussion tag. He agreed, but on meta, every topic needs a tag of a small susbset of tags: (discussion, bug, ... and some more) and nothing really fitted. But at least, removing the discussion-tag was needed to show my protest. – user unknown Jun 20 '11 at 15:38
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@Fred, @User, I raised a separate question so this discussion need not occur here. – Oddthinking Jun 20 '11 at 16:37

merged by Fabian Apr 11 '11 at 16:30

this question was merged with Discussion about requiring references for all claims because it is an exact duplicate of that question.

2 Answers

up vote 13 down vote accepted

Wikipedia has had a huge influence over the development of Stack Exchange. This is another instance where we steal page from Wikipedia's book. After all, why reinvent the wheel?

The Wikipedia community relies on the No Original Research core policy to combat unsubstantiated claims from finding their way into articles:

Nutshell This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources.

The very purpose of this site, as defined by the FAQ, is to combat unsubstantiated claims:

Skeptics - Stack Exchange is for skeptics, rationalists, free thinkers, or anyone who questions pseudoscience. Skeptics is about applying skepticism — it's for researching the evidence behind the claims you hear or read.

The voting system of Stack Exchange is largely meant to relax any need for specific policy regarding what constitutes a valid answer (and by and large it accomplishes this) — however, due to the nature of Skeptics, the community needs to enforce the idea of no original research to encourage healthy voting.

Users are required to reference all significant claims they make in their answers.

There are some types of questions that we can safely answer without needing references, however, such as claims that blatantly violate some laws of nature or known scientific facts (around high school level). For example, debunking a claim about a perpetuum mobile, linking to Wikipedia's article about the laws of thermodynamics might be advisable, but only for the reader's convenience.

Bad:

  • "...since I have personally experienced it numerous times"
  • "Anecdotally, I've seen it..."
  • "I heard that it was also caused by ..."
  • "I'm not sure if this idea comes from some research"

Good:

  • "There is a fairly comprehensive article on the topic at..."
  • "A recent Argonne National Lab study concluded that..."
  • Even better, multiple sources

Original answer by Renesis and edited by Borror0

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I also think that claims you hear or read should also be referenced. Otherwise I could start a question like: Is it true that ants live on Alpha Centauri? besides never hearing of that. – Jader Dias Apr 14 '11 at 16:43
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This begs the question of why not just use wikipedia. The point of most other stackexchange sites is to have a meaningful and informative exchange on the subject. If somebody makes a pivotal claim, of course it should be backed by references. This place should be able to put more meat on the bone. I see little gain from the live nature of this site in if all we do is seeing how quickly we can compile a wikipedia like page. I think that a more productive relation to wikipedia would be to expect people to read the wikipedia article on a subject before asking the question. – Tormod May 1 '11 at 22:34
@Tormod - you'd best be trolling there... – Khanzor May 10 '11 at 0:22
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No, I am not. I don't see much added value in using a stackexchange site if you plan on using a format that WOULD be best served and IS best served using the wikipedia stack. – Tormod May 11 '11 at 14:40
The question asker should provide an example of "notability" (i.e. who made the claim) but not necessary from a "reputable source" because this is what the answers to Skeptics questions will do. Answerers should reference reputable sources to support/refute the claim, and those should be upvoted. – rwong May 16 '11 at 6:44
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@rwong: you're kidding, right? Or do you actually propose pulling the (horrible, horrible) notion of "notability" over from WP too? – Jürgen A. Erhard Jun 29 '11 at 17:22
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@jae, too late. It hasn't yet reached official FAQ status, but the issue of notability has come up several times. If you have a justification for calling it "horrible, horrible", I suggest that is where you put it. – Oddthinking Jun 30 '11 at 12:19
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@tor: funnily enough, the idea of this site is not to simply answer any question, but to do so skeptically. I suggest you read up on Wikipedia what skepticism is before bringing up comments that suggest that speculation is the "meat on the bone". Facts and reliable references are the "meat on the bone". – Sklivvz Jul 28 '11 at 8:17
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Citation are not facts. Worse, they are really mere arguments from authority which are the very antithesis of skepticism. A true skeptical argument should stand on its own. Every major bad idea of history e.g. eugenics, was once rigorously supported by the intellectual and scientific authorities of its day. The claim that a "skeptical" argument hinges on whether someone took the time to slap up a Wikipedia page is risible. It raises the question of why anyone should bother to contribute to site when they can only provide answers available by a google search. – TechZen Jul 12 '12 at 20:21

I think there is room for some more explicitly-mentioned exceptions to the rules described in the current policy. Despite me approving of the current answer, I see people (including me) getting pinged by moderators and other regular users in cases where I think references are not necessarily required.

[Disclaimer: I have a weird conflict of interest, as I happen to have been the person who originally asked this question, so I have the power to change the accepted answer, but now it is an official FAQ question, and I don't want to abuse that power. Further, I am 99% happy with the current answer, but I want to suggest a tweak - I wanted to check if it was controversial before I blundered in with the edit button.]

Consider this fictional question about a real claim I heard as a school-kid:

I heard from my school friends that if you are asleep and you dream that you die, you actually die! Is that true?

Now, consider these fictional answers:

Answer 1:

When you dream, during the REM cycle, blah de blah, REM atonia makes the voluntary muscles blah blah, except in pathological cases blah blah, famous scientist, in an article published in Nature magazine, blah, blah.

Based on this understanding, I cannot see how it would be possible for the dream to influence your autonomic system to cause you to die.

Answer 2:

If it were true that people died whenever they dreamt about dying, then no-one would ever know that is what they were dreaming about. It is something we could never know was true (at least based on current technology.) Therefore, whoever first said it was true was making it up.

Answer 3:

Last week, I dreamed that I died. In my dream, my head got chopped off. I didn't even wake up, and kept dreaming. I am still alive today. Ask some of your older friends and family, and I am sure you will find at least one of them has also dreamed they died.

Based on the current policy, all three answers suffer from lack of references.

The first one has references, but not to the big claim in the last sentence, which ties together all the other claims and applies it to the question.

The second has no references at all, and the third is (gulp) little more than a personal anecdote!

Despite this, I fear that, under the current system, the first one would probably sneak past our filters, by having at least some references, while the second and third would get stomped on. At the same time, I think that the third is actually the most convincing argument, followed by the second.

So here are my requests:

1) That logical argument - i.e. drawing conclusions using logic based on agreed premises - be accepted without requiring references.

The premises themselves should be subject to the normal referencing rules - i.e. not required in answer 2, in this dream example, because it only relies well-known facts about dreaming.

2) That we explicitly mention that personal anecdote is permitted where it provides just the single data point required to disprove an "all people have this property" claim. I guess any such claim may be subject to others accusing the answerer of being mistaken or lying, but in many cases, where the claim is not extraordinary, I think it provides a good response.

I am not, for a second, suggesting that an "I was cured by X." anecdote provides reliable evidence for a "X cures people" claim. That sort of statement requires statistical support, but an "All people have this property" only requires one counter-example to be disproven.

What do people think? Are these reasonable adjustments to the current policy.

(No, the irony that this answer has no references has not escaped me.)

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I disagree on point 2. One data point does not prove anything. It may do so for yourself, but skeptically speaking, it's irrelevant. It's not a fact for the larger community. – Sklivvz Jul 28 '11 at 8:24
Should we allow this? If not, why not? Answer 3b: I dreamt of dying in my sleep, I woke up in the A&E because I had a heart attack while sleeping. So my dream was caused by my condition and there is some truth in the statement. – Sklivvz Jul 28 '11 at 8:28
Should we allow this? If not, why not? Answer 3c: I am a doctor and I speak with dying patients all day long. They always dream of dying... – Sklivvz Jul 28 '11 at 8:28
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@Sklivvz, to your 2nd point: in fields where there are experimental errors or variability in responses (i.e. most of them), I absolutely agree. This limits the use to a very small percentage of questions: where the claim is ALL X are Y, it only takes one counter-example to disprove it. However, an anecdote cannot be used to prove the same statement. – Oddthinking Jul 28 '11 at 14:32
Your first comment, I am not sure if you are making the same comment (it isn't a fact because one data point is not enough), or that it isn't a fact because the community don't know if I just made it up. (I tried to address that this only works with prosaic claims.) I'm afraid I don't understand your third point; sorry. – Oddthinking Jul 28 '11 at 14:35
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but an anecdote is only as convincing as yourself. Now, it will be very convincing for you, but not for the rest of the internet who doesn't know whether you are trustworthy :-). Example: "There are claims that clairvoyance is bogus, is it true?" "Anecdotally, it works for me." – Sklivvz Jul 28 '11 at 14:36
I was just making the points (b) that we would incur in selection bias, and (c) that we would incur in appeals to authority – Sklivvz Jul 28 '11 at 14:38
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Answer 2 is a fine argument for my old claims, that sometimes, logical reasoning is enough and a fine reaction. About Answer 3, I'm unsure. Presented as evidence, it doesn't work, because it is not reproducable. But sometimes, in absence of better answers, a personal claim can be better than nothing, Maybe somebody is an expert and can convince you to be one. Since I myself never dreamed about dying, I'm sceptical that somebody else did. On the other side - I experienced, that I could influence my dreams. Hm. Hm. – user unknown Sep 7 '11 at 1:15
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I think that arguments that point out through logic alone that the question is self-contradictory, inconsistent or contains a calculation flaw should not require a reference. But care is needed because logic is sometime good at disproving but rarely good at proving. So many logic arguments would not, on this criterion, be acceptable. – matt_black Sep 27 '11 at 21:49

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